In other words I don't believe this theology, andI'm not recommending beliefs or anything along those lines. Even more than that I feel that spirit of truth in my heart that it is true. Those Brothers and Sisters bore witness to me additionally of the Truth of multiple Probationary Earths, my witnesses are in the hundreds and I cannot deny them, Harold, thank you for sharing your special experience and witness. Even when I was small, I felt that some spirits come to be tested and other (superior) spirits come to test! Another name who too . As it is now, one could easily conclude God respects persons, because some of us clearly get benefits others never had. I will ponder about it and ask Heavenly Father. Tonya, I didnt know this about your family. Mahalo. man. In January of 1846, just over a year and a half after the death of JS, Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball ordained each other to act as a savior. It lasted several weeks. Is it not so, surely? (Moses 1). Im glad to see youre getting your own comfort and witness of the doctrine! Seems to me that there is as much evidence for this reincarnation doctrine as there is for the Heavenly Mother doctrine. Mahalo for bringing this to light! Something that has always been there but was never realized by me. Im glad you feel that way Kendall. God bless you. over the airways and fiber lines of our media sources. I love Them with all my heart and desire to serve them forever. Never at any time in my research and doctrinal interests have zombies, adultery, and murder ever remotely crossed my mind. Not all probation is negative; quite often, it is merely counsel to attend the temple more, read select scriptures, or pray more frequently and fervently. At best it just means the Holy Ghost doesn't have a body and will one day, will die, and will be resurrected. For some of us, the knowledge of who we have been in Yet they lived on the earth at the beginning when it was nearly still a paradise, and they lived to almost 1000 years before dying. I can choose to end my learning and education then or I have the agency to continue onto college and graduate school. Knowing myself well enough to know that I would never have agreed to such a thing knowing my own weaknesses all too well..and having been able to learn from on high many amazing things in temple service..i began to question the plan as it was being taught every sunday..my questions as a spiritually gifted woman were met mostly with disdain amidst the patriarchy and toxic perfectionism of many members through no fault of their own but through false Traditions that have been passed down and incomplete doctrines. Thank you so much for sharing your story! What did Jesus do? the greater majority of the worlds population have patiently been waiting for What a wonderful picture with the sun (son) and your picture seen in the Jewish tradition where a day begins when the darkness sets, it shows something that goes so well along with what you said. Likewise the use of the term "savior" is more vague than I think you are using it. I have learned for I met an individual who had seen me on one of those probationary Earths. as insights and spiritual impressions have come, I have not wanted to share the Having been so moved upon in the process of discovery, my friend Greg and I compiled a book called Multiple Probations which is a compilation of interesting history, supportive scriptures, and informative quotes from early authorities of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I love you all and am thankful for the puzzle piece of truth each of you has to offer in my journey. For many Although it had to be put on a shelf for a year or so when I first heard about it, the Fringe Doctrine of Multiple Mortal Probations has answered many of my questions about Christ, our Father and Mother, the Noble and Great Ones, the 144,000, the Olympians, Prophets of Old and of Latter Days, and the hope that my friends and family members still have if they choose not to forgive themselves and progress in THIS life! Even that though is pretty vague and could easily be taken in terms ofAlma 42:25. So, each new life gives a clean slate, while maintaining our spiritual essence and disposition and propensity for good or evil. It would be very helpful to me, if you could share scripture references for multiple probations. Very well said Victoria! As is common knowledge, the trio of beings who participate in the creation in the temple are Michael, Jehovah, and Elohim, and these possibly represent JS' conception of the Godhead. I believe even to the point that if I see an extra dark effort to oppose something then it must be very significant. WHY ONE of my sons and I have always said we CAME here with a testimony finally clicked and I feel so blessed because it isnt that easy for some to believe. Let's review multiple scriptures that allow us to see things as they really are: 1) The Plan of Happiness. Only through a Multiple Probation lens can the mercy portion of the Plan of Salvation be realized, as those who choose to ascend to higher kingdoms may receive such an opportunity by going back down in a veiled environment to continue their development and progress as a son or daughter of heavenly parents. I want to move forward and progress to the next grade. Nevertheless, when I first read, and continued to read, SO many quotes from the early Brethren/leadership of the church, pieces started to come together. According to the Encyclopedia of Mormonism, as. I still struggle to understand my place in the eternitys. As the recent You know Eric its interesting to me how much i have loved James Allen for so many years and how you were also inspired by him. This is a straight forward interpretation of the standard collated version of the sermon most often circulated, but it's made even clearer by George Laub journal summary. to be better than others or have suggested that even if it were a true Interesting, interpretation. The apparent supremacy in Daniel of the Ancient of Days to the "one like unto the Son of Man," who JS interpreted as Christ, makes Brigham's Adam-God doctrine even more understandable. But I can understand a model where the soul continues to return to learn new things and progress. The LDS church teaches the Pauline principle of many degrees in heaven. The church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints official stance on multiple mortal probations (similar to reincarnation) is that is the doctrine of the devil. Having been so moved upon in the process of discovery, my friend Greg and I compiled a book called Multiple Probations which is a compilation of interesting history, supportive scriptures, and informative quotes from early authorities of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. experience, rather than only from a spiritually genetic disposition to be so. People that I still feel the spirit about, so I have to pinch myself too, haha. Thank you for bravely sharing it here in this public forum. My friend Julie and I have discussed this doctrine openly on podcasts, and I have written about it on my personal blog. When I first came upon Julies podcasts and heard the messages, including MMP. May you find Him now. They are those who openly came into the presence of Christ and openly rejected what Christ is offering. This could easily explain what Joseph Smith was inferring when he said the following Though some of the sheep may wander, the eye of the Shepherd is upon them, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. But my mother died recently and the idea of her in another probation feels a bit heartbreaking. There are many quotes of early LDS Church leaders who claimed the Prophet Joseph secretly taught a doctrine of multiple mortal probations. path, and between my Father in Heaven and me. I was drawn to him because of these gifts that he freely shared with me. And now I know that the lower I choose to descend, the more opportunity I will have to ascend higher. Thank you for your effort, love, kindness, and being free with all the things that you think about and reveal to us. And thank you Greg. When I first came upon the doctrine of multiple probations I said There is NO WAY I wanted to live another life like the one I was living now not that its been horrible but very Hard. Mormonism today is pretty bland by comparison. 33:9. this life became a probationary state; a time to prepare, Alma 12:24. a probationary time, a time to repent and serve God, Alma 42:4. your days of probation are past, Hel. Some have said that it has to do with having more children and posterity. For others, it has given meaning and Lidia, hearing you received your own witness is so validating. (Joseph Smith, History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 7 Vols. This life is the time and the day of our probation. Your peaceful witness strengthens my own. There is always hope in Christ. What an incredible doctrine of mercy and hope! Thank you for taking the time to read this and comment! Either in this life or the life to come, they will return. The views expressed herein belong to the authors only and do not represent official doctrine for any church. and the Sacrament the repetition of the covenant.. every Sunday we do the act of dying and be born again as a small little glimps of that path of multiple probations. One example of this is the multiple scripture references to go no more out. However the spirit worked upon me and I was reminded that my biggest question as a child was Where did God come from? I used to spend hours thinking about it even until my brain hurt. Hearing experiences like yours along with Erics and Julies really helps me. I believe in multiple probations and am thankful for this knowledge. I saw my Father work out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom I shall present it to my Father, so that he obtains kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt his glory, so that Jesus treads in his tracks to inherit what God did before; it is plain beyond disputation, and you thus learn some of the first principles of the gospel, about which so much hath been said. Im so grateful for you, Greg, Matt and Julie for your conviction and witnesses of the Truth! I just dont see how being promised we can be together forever, and being reborn in another life, and probably sealed to someone else fit together. D&C 132 on the other hand was dictated in 1843, prime time for this topic. It j u s t makes sense. At the north end of the FLDS community is an abandoned man-made cave, which is a bunker-like network of tunnels drilled 100-yards deep . . thousands) of people I have personally heard from in emails, within the LDS Thank you for the clarity youre bringing to this doctrine. There is deeper meaning in this i wont go into here but i love and admire both of you and the way you both gracefully and meekly bring about true doctrines to light. I realized it was up to me to ask, seek, knock, learn and apply with or without him. Growing up in the Church, I had the same impressions as you regarding our exaltation. Great topic. That phrase indeed feels appropriate for the version of Nor do I believe that a full understanding of Who I Am, in all the Eternal facets of my Being, qualifies me to take responsibility for doing Fathers work in somehow translating this knowledge to another. For example, in 1860, Orson Pratt wrote, "I heard brother Young say that Jesus had a body offlesh and bones, before he came (to earth and) he was born of the Virgin Mary, it was so contrary to every revelation given." A magnifying glass. He recorded, "But the holy ghost is yet a Spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body as the Savior did or as god did or the gods before them took bodies for the Saviour Says the work that my father did do i also & those are the works he took himself a body & then laid down his life that he might take it up again." I love truth wherever it is found. Thanks for standing up and witnessing even amongst the risk of severe persecution. We speak so easily about the baptism. The more I hear the more I learn from you and Julie!!! As for the sealing question, I certainly believe that sealings are very important. There is an answer. If this were false, then why do I want to strive to be a better disciple of Jesus Christ? Thank you for putting our thoughts into words of deeper understanding. I will give up on this life and try again in the next life. Thank you for visiting and commenting Anna. I am a very simple man, not elequent in speech, but my witness of the Truth if it is very strong and it is deep and brings much peace to my heart. Again, I thank you, Greg, Matt and Julie for having the courage to stand and to testify. I feel a longing and hope that I can learn and progress for as long as I choose to without time limits. 1 Answer Sorted by: 4 Probation is an action taken by a church leader or council that limits some privileges of church membership. (And there are multiple forms - the form of being human, the form of being Jewish, the form of being a prophet, etc. My future has been laid out before me. Some say this scripture suggeststhat a person might be able to leave the telestial glory experience another life on earth and then return to the telestial glory. Heavenly Father is very loving too help them through their next probation. Further because the arguments depend upon misreadings and often lack explicit texts its pretty circumstantial arguments at their strongest. The Church Has a Bunker-Like Network of Tunnels. Thanks for commenting. Considering the modern Mormon understanding of the titles Jehovah and Elohim didn't develop until long after Brigham Young, it is understandable that he could have developed his own interpretation of Micheal, Jehovah and Elohim. Thank you Eric. I admire your truth seeking and truth-recognizing abilities. I don't think the Laub quote you give suggests Laub read the KFD in terms of MMP either. He showed us the way how to ascend. In 1786, a guy named John Zephaniah Holwell published a tract called "Dissertation on the Origin of Intelligent Beings, and on Divine Providence".I recommend it to anybody curious about the ideas of a premortal existence, war in heaven, plan of salvation, opposition in all things, infant baptism, free agency, multiple mortal probations, etc. Multiple Probations is a beautiful doctrine. This clarification is very helpful. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it is a great thing to learn salvation beyond the grave. Perhaps the clearest example of this is a statement recorded by Nauvoo saint, George Laub. The sources are quoted from boap.org and the MF0081 "Multiple Mortal Probations: LDS Related Quotes" document found at mormonpolygamydocuments.org. And it speaks that our destination after this life, even if we come up short of the Glory of God could not possibly be our final destination for eternity. It's kind of like how in our times people will say stuff like, "What if the Holy Ghost is Heavenly Mother?" First, one reason for living in multiple probations is to complete work started in earlier lives. ??? How can eternal progression happen in one lifetime on this earth. Ive had some of those same thoughts. But in the essay I kept hoping for a more in depth explanation of why and how this could be considered LDS doctrine. Laman and Lemuel Were a Religious Product of their Day, The Right to Expression in the Kingdom of God, Light & Law #1 Two Laws For Every Kingdom, Women, Priesthood, and the Awful Monster of Traditional Belief, The Outer Vessel of King Noah and His Priests. Thank you again for your testimony and to stand boldly for truth. Among early Christians and LDS the doctrine of multiple mortal probations was taught. The answers are there if you seek them from the Lord and in His timing. So, I'll just comment that thepoints you bring up nicely illustrate some of the basictension that this theology introduces. Not sure if that group is still active anymore. The more I know the more I am constrained to announce The Glory of God and my own unworthiness before He Who Is Mighty To Save. Thanks for sharing your own experience, which is validating and comforting to know the Lord is answering many of His childrens questions! The purpose was not to claim that it is the doctrine of the Church, as we have no authority in that regard. we would not have experience and could not really gain knowledge or wisdom. In fact, he attributed his identification of Michael as God the Father to JS' commentary on Daniel and JS' equivalence of Adam, Michael, and the Ancient of Days. Joseph Smith and Multiple Mortal Probations, Apologetics, Law (not licensed), Reading (Re: 2nd Coming of Late), Writing (Published: Deseret News, SL Trib, New Era, Utah Peace Officer), http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/movies/shirley-maclaine-tells-film-set-stories-line-article-1.2545803. As for me, I will do my best to honor the rules of these forums. The Mormon scriptures clearly state that meat "should be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.". We aren't taught "Multiple Mortal Probation" in the Church because it is not true. 9. That is, I think the text is inherently ambiguous there. I can see that in the spiritual world it goes way beyond any earthly graduate school I can imagine. I often commented in Church Sunday School, that, to be considered Noble and Great!! Prescendia Huntington Buell (later Kimball) also affirmed her belief in "plural probations," referring to a statement "in confirmation" by her polyandrous husband Joseph Smiths. There were many things we did together as a couple and also individually that were in error of the doctrines of God as I have come to understand today. Eventually, a soul could achieve relative perfection and rise to the level of becoming a savior for others. Many members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in my belief are afraid of these lost doctrines especially when they are exposed to it from news agencies that are trying to (in my opinion) to make people fear that if it doesnt come directly from the president or prophet of the church then we are being led away by false prophets. As I am learning and beginning to understand more of multiple probations, eternal progression, ascension and condescension, I am seeing a much larger picture in the eternal realm of learning and progression. How unsearchable are the depths of the mysteries of him; and it is impossible that man should find out all his ways. Thank you for your wonderful expositions on such a beautiful and hidden part of the plan. ABC News. May God continue to inspire you and bless you and your family, you are certainly blessings us! Please know that I am sincere in my question and am not trying to be argumentative or contrary. it is hard to accept ideas that have not been touted over pulpits or publicized assigned to a kingdom of glory, whether Telestial, Terrestrial, or Celestial, Im sealed to my husband. LDS church on Gilgul or multiple mortal probations Third Hour Forum Rules - Please be familiar with these rules before posting. . Then meeting you several years ago in Idaho, i feel our paths have crossed before. Ever since first hearing the doctrine of Multiple Mortal Probations, I have felt peace in this knowledge. Single Probation Doctrine, and Mortal Experience. Thank you for sharing your witness Cheryl! You are obviously gifted and inspired by God. I love converts, and you have reminded me that the convert enthusiasm for new truth should never die in our hearts, like Nephis song of redeeming love, and if it does die, then we have indeed stopped growing! However, the teaching was probably only explicitly taught to a select few. And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place [the telestial kingdom where they now live], to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.". Maybe I will need to review a few things I learned from 5th grade but I feel like it would be a waste of time to start 5th grade over again. Thank you for raising this important point Diane. When I have read the account where the church leaders during the Saviors time were asking him if he were Jeremiah or some other great prophet, that never made sense to me until after reading your book, then it made perfect sense to me. I can only answer that through study, prayer, fasting, and a fair amount of grief, I have paid the price to know. despite my human weakness. Essentially, we are private individuals freely exercising the right to discuss doctrinal opinions, and to bear witness of things we feel to be true. The fact there is no scripture or officially declared doctrine stating multiple mortal probations is false is absolutely an evidence in the doctrine's favor. By We seem to continually become more and more of who and what we are. I was always looked at with the eyes of (Oh Brother). Thank you for sharing this. Thank you for sharing! Hi Diane! never considered the possibility of living multiple lives, many are judging the Whatever the case, I am certain that the most important factor about what relationships will look like in the eternities is agency. thousands of years for this day when Christians would awaken to the doctrine of This group gives us a safe platform in which we discuss the trials, tribulations, prophecies and signs of the last dispensation of which we live in. take it to the Lord and get your own answers. Who are the Sons of Perdition? This doctrine also brings peace to my soul and increases my love and respect for our Heavenly Father and Mother and our Savior, Jesus Christ. His response changed my eternal perspective forever when the voice of the Lord spoke to me and said I Am not in the business of destroying my children, nor are they ever lost to me for they are mine. Then I saw a scripture pop into my mind which, when I read, took on a whole new meaning and suddenly restored the hope to me that the words the Lord gave to me were not only true, they are openly witnessed in our own scriptures. I love your island perspective, which I hadnt considered. P.S. Thanks for sharing! Heather, I love that name for it. At one point I had to stop believing any thing he said to me of a spiritual nature and this set me on my path to get my own inspiration of the true doctrine. The LDS Church declined to comment on Snuffer or his movement, but an internal 2015 presentation to the faith's apostles (as provided by the website MormonLeaks) lists the Sandy attorney . I still dont know, or even pretend to know, but I do know that some day I will know and it will make perfect sense to me. That marriage ended in divorce and left me and others in a lot of pain and devastation as to discernment of truth and error, light and darkness, in such gifts.
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